(189) The Brain Friendly Workplace with Friederike Fabritius

(189) The Brain-Friendly Workplace with Friederike Fabritius

Friederike Fabritius is a neuroscientist and specialises in neuro-leadership. So much gold in this episode: 

-        Discover your neuro-signature

-        Bridge the three gaps: stress gap, social neuro-gap and empathy gap

-        Flow through fun, fear and focus

-        Seligman’s psychological needs

-        Create a culture of belonging without Group Think

And so much more! 

ABOUT Friederike Fabritius

Friederike Fabritius, MS, is a neuroscientist and trailblazer in the field of neuro-leadership. Her brain-based leadership programs have transformed how Fortune 500 executives think, innovate, and navigate change. Fabritius is a thought leader and keynote speaker, known for engaging global audiences at organizations like Google, Ernst & Young (EY), Boston Consulting Group (BCG), Adecco, Accenture, Deloitte, BMW, Bayer, SAP, Harvard Business Review, trivago, and Audi. An alumna of McKinsey & Company and the Max Planck Institute for Brain Research, she serves on the prestigious German Academy of Science and Engineering. 

Fabritius is the Wall Street Journal bestselling and award-winning author of The Brain-Friendly Workplace: Why Talented People Quit and How to Get Them to Stay and The Leading Brain: Neuroscience Hacks to Work Smarter, Better, Happier. She is fluent in six languages and has worked with clients in over 164 countries.

CONNECT with Friederike Fabritius

Website
 
 www.friederikefabritius.com

www.neurohacks.de

 Social media handles

LinkedIn: Friderike Fabritius

Instagram: @friederikefabritius 

Twitter: @FriederikeFab

Facebook: @Friederike Fabritius

Youtube: @FriederikeFab

VIDEO of this episode:

YouTube Video: https://youtu.be/hIXL3AZzw8w 

ABOUT Katie Stoddart:

Katie Stoddart is an award-winning, international, leadership & performance coach. Katie started her career as a hydrographic engineer working at sea and she now supports business owners to thrive in their life & business.

As a keynote speaker, Katie frequently speaks at summits, conferences & podcasts. For her weekly podcast ‘The Focus Bee Show’, Katie interviews thought leaders, speakers and authors. 

Katie works primarily with entrepreneurs & executives through 1-1 coaching & corporate workshops on Focus, Leadership & Performance.  

CONNECT with Katie Stoddart, aka 'the focus bee': 

PODCAST: https://thefocusbeeshow.buzzsprout.com/

LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiestoddart

BLOG: https://thefocusbee.com/blog/

TWITTER: https://twitter.com/TheFocusBee

INSTAGRAM:  https://www.instagram.com/thefocusbee/

FACEBOOK:  https://www.facebook.com/thefocusbee

Transcript

[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Suddar here aka the focus b. And on this show I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.

[00:36] Katie: Such a joy to have Predirique Fabricus on the show today. Predirique is a neuroscientist and specializes in the field of neuro leadership. She is the Wall Street Journal bestselling and award winning author of The Brain Friendly Workplace why Talented People Quit and how to Get Them to Stay. Wonderful to have you here, Frederica. Thank you so much for joining the show.

[01:01] Friederike: Thank you so much for having me.

[01:02] Katie: Katie, I've read both your books cover to cover and really excited to dive into your latest book, The Brain Friendly Workplace. So many different topics to discuss. Firstly, it's wonderful to see that we have the same neurosignature, estrogen and dopamine high. So I thought this is fun and this is maybe a good place to begin for our listeners that maybe aren't familiar with the term yet and who have yet to discover this book. Could you share a few words on the four different types of Neurosignatures?

[01:34] Friederike: Of course. So we all have different brain chemicals that influence our neurosignature, that is, dopamine, serotonin, estrogen and testosterone. Those really influence our personality. And I would say it's 50% nature, 50% nurture. Of course it can depend, but it's not one or the other, both influences. And it's quite interesting because we all have all four of them, but not to the same degree, not to the same extent. So for example, maybe we can go through the four different Neurosignatures. But you have to understand that it's always a mix. That's why it's your signature. You're not one or the other. It's usually you're high on one, you're lower on another. But all genders, all people, everyone, I would say even our dogs and cats and whatever you have living at home probably have. And you're a signature like that. And so Dopamine makes us energetic, curious, adventure seeking, a little bit of sensation seeking. You seek a little bit of drama, you want to explore. That's the dopamine. And some people have a lot and some people have little. So that's really something you see in other people. These are traits that are linked to your Dopamine system. Then we have serotonin. On the other hand, serotonin is more about well being, more of a calm presence. So if you have an active serotonin, your signature, you're more likely to plan ahead, to think about the consequences, to read that email twice before sending it out. You're more cautious, you're paying attention to detail, you take things seriously. Very often people who are high on serotonin will cherish traditions, be very loyal. So it's about complementary skills, to the dopamine system. I find that so interesting because we always think one is best. But no, we need all of those. If everybody's just high on dopamine and hops off cliffs, that's not the best thing for society. If everybody's just high serotonin and double checks everything and never takes any bigger risks, that's also very dampening for our spirit. So what I love about this is that actually together we are better and stronger, and it brings more diversity of thought into the world. But let's also cover estrogen and testosterone. With estrogen, both men and women have it. I think it's important to say that. Same with testosterone. So it's not the male or the female hormone per se. Estrogen brings a quality of empathy, of focus on people, often lateral thinking. So a creativity that is not so straightforward with like three points boom, boom, boom. It's more about seeing patterns and data, having intuition, because you have more loops between your brain and your body, more body loops, and also a more connected brain when your brain has been shaped by estrogen. So these are important skills linked to the estrogen system. And then we have testosterone. Testosterone makes you more confident, it makes you bold, it makes you competitive, it makes you sometimes even a bit aggressive in a sense. And many people who have a high testosterone Neurosignature will excel in technology and have an interest in music and math and these kind of systems. And I think the beauty of it is we need different people for different jobs in different situations. And so if you understand your Neurosignature, you can work more in line with what your true strengths are.

[05:33] Katie: Yes. And this shines through your book the importance of having thought diversity. So not only diversity in terms of gender or race, but also diversity in terms of way we think. One thing that I was curious about, though, isn't necessarily covered that much in the book, is if, for instance, you have a high dopamine neurosignature and you want to maybe have a bit more of that serotonin, what can we sort of do to balance it out in ourselves? So you explain in a company, if we have high dopamine or testosterone Neurosignature, it's great to have other people, other team members that have different Neurosignatures high in estrogen or serotonin. But how about in ourselves when we suddenly notice, okay, this lack of attention to detail that maybe that serotonin could give us. So how can we balance that in ourselves?

[06:24] Friederike: Such an interesting question. So, as you said, my number one advice is to not change yourself, but to work in line with your neurosignature. So rather than beating yourself up all day because you have too little serotonin, cherish that you're a high dopamine person rather than like always. But of course we can learn and grow. And so I think, first of all, we learn by example. My personal life, I'm married to a high testosterone person and that has been great for me. Over the years, I've picked up so many skills. Like in business, I've become much tougher in a sense, bolder, more confident, and he role modeled this behavior for me. And so it's been fascinating for me to expand my skills in that direction simply by seeing how he does it and then trying it out for myself and to see what happens. So I think surrounding yourself with role models who have different skills is truly empowering because you pick up some of their skills automatically if you want to, of course, and if you have that respect for how they do things. So role modeling is one thing. Another I would say is try to see it really as a learning experience, as something where you try something out and if it fails, it doesn't really matter. So try something different and see where it leads. You get a little bit outside your comfort zone, but don't beat yourself up. So, for example, another example from my life, I've built this whole video studio with different cameras and all kinds of I'm not necessarily a tech person, but it was so important to me to do this. I fell so in love with these possibilities, so I just had to make it happen. And I spent like hours in this studio Tinkering programming. It wasn't easy, but I never expected it to be easy. I knew it was a bit outside my neuro signature, but then it was so rewarding when I managed. And so I think it's about growing, it's about having that mindset that there's more to life and there are so many different skills and there's beauty and different talents. But of course, when it comes to it, in the end, I love also hiring people with different skills who can complement for my weaknesses.

[08:41] Katie: Yes, and that leads directly to the other point, which is that you mentioned three gaps throughout the book. So one of them is this neuro gap around having this right balance between people who have high dopamine testosterone neurosignatures and people that have high serotonin and estrogen neurosignatures and that mix. You also mentioned the social NeuroGAP between extroverts and introverts and the empathy gap regarding the dark triad. So maybe you could just briefly elaborate on these three gaps and what companies can do in order to bridge these gaps. I realize this is a big question, but let's dumb it down to the bullet points. Let's try to summarize it.

[09:23] Friederike: It's a great question. I love actually when people have actually read my book. I can sense it from your questions. Sometimes they haven't.

[09:32] Katie: I'm just saying.

[09:33] Friederike: So it's a really good question. So first of all, there's the stress gap. So people have different optimal stress points and some people thrive under high pressure and lots of change and high stress levels. And some people performance get dampened by too much stress. And so we need to understand as a company, as a leader, as a parent, as a spouse, that people have different optimal stress points and what is good for you might be bad for someone else. And in companies, there tends to be a preference for people who have a very high stress point. And that leads to a high stress environment. Because imagine if all the bosses have high optimal stress points, they create a high stress environment that alienates other neurosignatures. So that's the stress point. I think it's very applicable. You don't have to necessarily test your employees. I think it's just important to have that respect and tolerance for different optimal stress points and to understand that high tolerance for stress is not the same thing as high performance. Because there are many people with a low optimal stress point, who perform wonderfully well, who develop patterns, who do research, who really study things in detail, who add a lot of value, but at a lower stress point. And if you eliminate those people, a lot of brain power leaves the company. So that's the stress point. Then we have the social gap. The social gap is about the fact that most companies promote and retain extroverts. Because as a leader, you have to go to all these social events, to all these networking dinners. You have to be always doing speeches on some stage. And that alienates talent as well, because there are a lot of very smart people who are introverts who just don't want to lead that kind of life. And so I'm making the case for all the wonderful skills that introverts bring to the workplace and that we need to allow for a bit more silence and solitude. Not every meeting has to be a meeting with tons of people. The best brainstorming actually happens when you let people brainstorm alone first. The best results you get when you actually allow people to sometimes turn off their phone and their email and to let them work undestructed. Undestructed. So that's the social gap. And then I'm making the case for the empathy gap because it's very interesting that research shows that the boardrooms are populated by narcissists, psychopath and Machiavellist. I mean, think about it. Isn't it crazy? Like the people who are supposed to lead us often have this dark triad personality. It's simple to see why that would lead to toxic workplaces. You can see it in politics. You can see it in companies anywhere where power is involved. The people who get to the top very often have some of these dark triad aspects to their personality. And so I'm making the case that we should in many companies, there's this idea if this person performs well, well, okay, he's not the nicest, but he's a great performer. No, because that alienates a lot of people. So I think we need to have a little bit of a no tolerance for toxic behavior, unethical behavior, bullying, all of that. It's straight link because we tend to adore narcissists and let them get by because they're so good at marketing themselves. And so I think we need a little bit more awareness around that topic.

[13:22] Katie: Yes, I think like with most things, it starts with that awareness and checking people for empathy, realizing, does this person show empathy in certain situations? And that just does lead to a more trusting company culture. You mentioned when you were talking about the different stress points for people, and I loved your chapter on flow. Love. Flow love. Check Mihal's book on it. Yes. Coming back to Fun, Fear and Focus, I was very curious why it is that we need to diminish sort of that self talk, which I think is a really important part of flow. And this also means, as you explained in your book, that your prefrontal cortex, your PFC, is less activated. But I always imagined that when I was in flow, obviously my amygdala is the part of my brain that's active. So I always thought that my PFC was active. And then you're saying, no, that's not too active either, because we're diminishing the self talk. So my question is, which part of the brain is really the most active when we're in flow?

[14:33] Friederike: When we're in flow, we mostly activate, we act from our basal ganglia as well. So it's like our experience is everything. We truly know our creative brain. So it's less about the prefrontal control and more about brain areas that are important for cognition, but not so much with the executive cognition, because your prefrontal cortex controls your brain. So there's this executive function idea that here's what you should be doing, here's what you should not be doing. It is a bit like a teacher in your brain that's telling you what to do. And it's also blocking our creativity. Because if you're on a big stage and you're constantly thinking, and let's say you're in a presentation, you're leading a presentation and you're in flow, and your prefrontal cortex tells you, oh, this lady in the first row, she's giving you a great strange look, maybe you need to tone down your jokes. All this inhibition is not so good for us when it comes to performance. So actually, it's like the prefrontal cortex is less activated, I think how to really characterize flow, it's more about the brainwaves involved. So you get less of this better, a bit stress brain, and you get more of this lower brainwaves that lead to AHA, insides, and you get these hot insides that are very high frequency waves. So you first have alpha and then you have gamma. So they're different brainwaves, different frequencies that are activated in your brain. And I think, yes, the negative chatter when you have this negative self talk, when you're self conscious, when you're worried. I think there was a study, several studies probably by now, that showed that people are better at learning languages when they are under the influence of alcohol. I'm not saying alcohol is terrible for your brain. I don't drink ever because I think it's just killing your brain cells. So I'm not making a case here for alcohol. But what it does is it removes your inhibitions and then you're more open to learn. So there are so many people who tell us how to behave, what to do, how to act. And when you're focused on that, you can't do your best performance. Yes. The different ways it's so important to remove it. Yes.

[17:06] Katie: And I think that's probably also why flow is so soothing, because during that moment, that voice, that inner voice, that self critic, all of that disappears. And like you explained, you can just be one with that task. You also cover the difference between stress, so good stress and toxic stress and short busts of stress that are actually good for you. And that includes hormetic stresses like the cold showers. Great to see. You also love cold showers. Can't get enough excited about that. We've actually been cold dipping here in Sweden recently. And it's funny, a lot of people think it's strange, but then the OD person joins us, so it's amazing. Yes. So could you cover maybe a bit the difference between this sort of toxic stress and this good stress that we need in small doses?

[17:57] Friederike: Yeah, so a little bit of stress is actually good for us. So short term stress boosts your immune system and boosts your mental performance as well and your well being. So it's good to expose yourself to short moments of stress and to then learn to regulate yourself. So let's say you do one of these cold dips, you jump into the water, you have a short shock moment of Norepinephrine being released, dopamine being released. It's a shock stress moment. But then afterwards you calm down and you get that parasympathetic response of relaxation. That's amazing for you, for your immune system, for your cognitive function, for your mood. It's like a brain booster. What is bad for us is when stress is chronic long term uncontrollable. So when you feel like somebody else is running your life or your job or you have no control and it's just overwhelming and there's no way to stop it, that's what's bad for us. And so I think there are several ways to deal with that. First of all, whenever you're exposed to long term stress, try to interrupt it, if only for a short moment, through deep breathing, a short walk, something positive. So try to at least create these short moments of relaxation where you can interrupt it. And then of course, it's important to take control somehow. Even if it's uncontrollable, there's always something you can do. And for your brain, it does make a difference whether you feel like you're a victim and you don't know what to do, or whether you feel like there's something you can do. So I like to tell my clients, like Think, ask yourself one question what can I do to make myself feel a little bit better? What is that small thing you can do? Even if the whole picture is terrifying and terrible, there's always something you can do and that's where you should start because the brain loves autonomy and hates when there is a lack of control.

[20:09] Katie: That leads directly to what my next point was going to be around Sedigman's psychological needs and so the importance of autonomy. I was going to ask why is autonomy important? So you're already covering here that our brain loves this, but why is it why is it so important for us to feel that we're the master of our destiny and we're not just the victim of circumstances?

[20:31] Friederike: That's a good question. I don't know why you have such great questions. So that's something for me to think about later. Why, for whatever reason, it has been shown in mice, it has been shown in animal studies, whenever there's no control over the situation, that really leads to a lot of stress. For whatever reason, whenever you feel like you run the show, it's better for us, I guess they're evolutionary reasons because of course, when you have no control, you're doomed. You're probably getting killed or somebody is doing bad things to you. So our brain loves it. But why it does love you? Sorry? Love it? I don't know. I would have to look it up if there is ever some kind of theory around that.

[21:16] Katie: But maybe it is linked to this survival. Maybe if we feel more in control, we feel we can influence our survival better. Maybe if we feel that we're a victim of circumstances, maybe we're about to die because there's nothing we can do in a storm. So maybe it's a survival thing.

[21:32] Friederike: Yeah, it's probably some kind of bias that shows us now you're really in trouble, there's nothing more you can do now you can just as well die.

[21:40] Katie: And so the other two psychological needs that Seliman talks about, I like to think of them as ABC autonomy, Belonging and Competence. Regarding the importance of belonging, fantastic chapter that you cover on the group think versus the group flow. So how can we encourage belonging in a company without falling prey to that group think?

[22:03] Friederike: Such a great question. Yeah, everybody's talking about psychological safety. I think that's very important. Of course we need trust, we need to encourage good relationships, we need to make sure people feel safe to raise their opinions. The only problem is, and there's no problem with psychological safety, it's a great concept and it works. But the problem is that people fail to address groupthink because they think when everybody's in harmony and when everybody is feeling great, we have a great team, all is good, but chances are high that we will be all thinking the same, all following the same stream of thoughts. And there is not so much innovation, there is not so much creativity, there are not so many new ideas. Because when everybody agrees that's what we love most as humans, we love when everybody has the same opinion. In fact, there was some research where they looked, let's say I give you pictures of faces and ask you is this person trustworthy? Is this person trustworthy? And you get to rate them based on their facial expression or whatever, you see their features and then afterwards I tell you oh good, and rating those people. But actually most people think this guy here is not so trustworthy. And most people think this woman here that you thought was trustworthy is not. So you get feedback what other people think, and then you get to do a second rating later. In 50% of the cases, people adjust their rating to fit in with a majority of people. And they do that subconsciously. So they're really convinced that they changed their minds. And it gives the brain a reward signal. It's like a pleasant feeling when you fit in into a group and whenever you disagree, your brain gives you a bit like an error signal. So we are wired to fit in, we are wired to seek harmony. But that often leads to a situation where everybody just pleases the boss and everybody just repeats the same sentences everyone else is saying. So the big question is how can we have harmony while still allowing for diversity of opinions and diversity of thought? And there are a few good tips and there's research at the University of Berkeley, fascinating research on groupthink, and they really found some tricks or some things you can do. And I think the first and most fundamental point is to understand that when people dissent, when people disagree with you, it helps everyone to do their best thinking. So having somebody in the group who disagrees, it's not like annoying, like oh, this person again who doesn't agree with us, usually the reactions are negative. If there's somebody's like oh, again this person, it helps everybody to think deeper, to think better, to really think about their rationale. It helps everyone to question their narrative. So dissent is something positive. And to think of it this way I think is the first and foremost most important step to understand that it helps us to deeper and better thinking. And then of course, in a corporate setting, I would always encourage anonymous voting processes. For example, so the moment you have an open voting, everybody checks is the boss raising his or her hand and then everybody else is following. So if you let people vote anonymously before to turn in their opinions and then you check what everybody else think, that's so much better and make sure they really turn it in. Because there was one experiment where they did this and people then wrote down their vote, then they heard the group opinion and then some of them erased their votes because they had like this magic pad so really make sure people turn it in and then they get to hear what everyone else thinks. Same for brainstorming processes. So we need to allow and I think today's world with hybrid work and virtual work it's so much easier to do this. We have all the tools and technology to do voting processes anonymously and we should rather than getting together in a big group and then what does everybody think? Everybody will think the same. Because even those who disagree don't want to be that person who disagrees and who destroys the harmony.

[26:31] Katie: And maybe it's also proof that it is a culture of trust when people are able to disagree, because then it shows that everyone trusts that they can express this opinion and not be judged or criticized. And so that maybe is also an indication of a trusting company culture. Love so many other things in your book I wanted to go now down the outcome focus company culture but I actually feel that it would be great to maybe look at what would be your tips for company who wants to increase this brain friendly workplace? What do you feel are the two, three steps that really make the biggest difference? If a company wants to starts reading the book, looks into this and say okay, what can we change in our workplace in order to have a more brain friendly, people friendly diversified workplace?

[27:24] Friederike: So I think the first step would be to understand neurosignature diversity. So respect that different brains are different and you don't have to test every single individual in the company to make that happen. If you just create different kind of settings and options for people so that they can choose how they work, where they work, when they work, that's all you need. You can just offer options, you don't need to know who falls into which category so to say because if you offer options for all different neurosignatures, people will choose how to work and work in line with their neurosignatures. So it's not so complicated actually. It's not like you have to test every single person and then do a customized workplace. For example, in an office you can have open space for those who love to sit together, you can have places where people can lock themselves in and work quietly undisturbed. You can have different areas and everybody chooses where they want to sit. That's easy rather than just having one size of office space for everyone. I mean, that's one of the more complicated changes I would even say because they actually require physical changes to your office but it's more about offering different possibilities and then let people choose how they want to work. And the second step is when you do that think about the outcome and not about the number of hours worked to think. So I strongly propose that we switch to outcome culture. What this means is it shouldn't matter where you work, when you work, how you work. The only thing that matters is do you deliver the results yes or no? And if you've done this in 2 hours or 15 hours, that's not my problem. Of course, if it's 15 hours every day, it is a problem. But I shouldn't measure people just by the hour, because some people do a lot in 1 hour and some people do very little in 1 hour. And so it should be more about allowing everyone to work how it works best for them, rather than measuring some metrics that really have no meaning in the end. Unless in some jobs, of course, where physical presence is important. But like for most white collar office jobs, do I care where you're located? Physically, not so much, as long as you deliver what you're supposed to deliver. And then the third point, I think we need to allow people to get into the flow state and know how to get them into the flow state. So we have not getting into it right now. But there are things you can do strategically to reach the flow state. And we know that when people reach the flow state, they can be up to five times more productive. So I think those three things understanding your signature diversity and offering a variety of different working styles and ways of working, switching to outcome culture so that you're not measuring people by where they sit and when they sit there at their desk, but more about what they produce. And then the third step would be setting the office up in a way so that people can reach the flow state. Are those three things will get you a long way?

[30:42] Katie: Yes, for sure. And love what you said also about the outcome driven. For me, that just makes so much more sense and it's so much more encouraging. It also encourages autonomy and it also encourages flow states. And it means that people have more flexibility, they're more willing to stay. It encourages retention and peak performance and a lot of different things. So that's an amazing point, too. This has been wonderful. It has been such a joy to have you here on the show today. Highly recommend the book for anyone who's listening that hasn't yet read it. This is only a fraction of everything that's covered in the book. Frederica, where can people find you? What's the best way to get in touch with you?

[31:23] Friederike: The best place is my website, federica Fabrizios@fredericafabrizios.com. I have a blog, I write regularly. I have a newsletter you can sign up for. You can find me on social media, LinkedIn mostly, but also on the other platforms. And I'd love to hear from you. So if you've read the book and loved it, then I'd love you to join the brain friendly community and let me get the feedback, maybe post with the. Hashtag brain friendly workplace. Because I must say, this morning I woke up and somebody had posted a picture with a book of my hand on social media. And it made me very happy to see that people are reading it, people are making changes, and it would be important to me to also hear what people have implemented. I love to hear those success stories. And also, if something didn't work, I need to know so I can improve it.

[32:16] Katie: Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here today, Raviliki. Really, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.

[32:21] Friederike: Thank you so much.

[32:27] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Bee Show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead. Sam.